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	<title>Comments on: Animal Testing – ‘Standing up for Science’</title>
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	<link>http://newgenerationsociety.com/2009/06/26/animal-testing-%e2%80%93-%e2%80%98standing-up-for-science%e2%80%99/</link>
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		<title>By: FELIX</title>
		<link>http://newgenerationsociety.com/2009/06/26/animal-testing-%e2%80%93-%e2%80%98standing-up-for-science%e2%80%99/comment-page-1/#comment-8285</link>
		<dc:creator>FELIX</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Nov 2010 05:33:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://newgenerationsociety.com/?p=508#comment-8285</guid>
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		<title>By: WALLACE</title>
		<link>http://newgenerationsociety.com/2009/06/26/animal-testing-%e2%80%93-%e2%80%98standing-up-for-science%e2%80%99/comment-page-1/#comment-7122</link>
		<dc:creator>WALLACE</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Sep 2010 17:02:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://newgenerationsociety.com/?p=508#comment-7122</guid>
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		<title>By: thisisabore</title>
		<link>http://newgenerationsociety.com/2009/06/26/animal-testing-%e2%80%93-%e2%80%98standing-up-for-science%e2%80%99/comment-page-1/#comment-5228</link>
		<dc:creator>thisisabore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 00:20:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://newgenerationsociety.com/?p=508#comment-5228</guid>
		<description>I see two problems with Pr. Aziz&#039;s argumentation.

First, he justifies the means retroactively by the results:
”This list of medical discoveries illustrates the point that if animals were not used none of these therapies and so many others would not exist.”
Applied in other context, the same argument is quite disturbing. Consider someone justifying war time human experimentation by pointing out the good things that came out of it. Even if something good did come out of the horrible experiments that were made on war prisoners, it doesn&#039;t justify doing the experiments in the first place.

Just because something ethically questionnable leads to something positive doesn&#039;t make it positive in itself.
This is common fallacy.

Secondly, I see some sort of paradox in the idea that it&#039;s a good idea to test on, say, mice, because they are &quot;like us&quot; genetically (to some extent) but it&#039;s ok to test on them because they are not like us.
We are conveniently only keeping the aspects of other animals that relate to us and not considering other aspects that make the testing questionnable: pain, sentience, pursuit of pleasure, family behaviour etc.
No, int this article, Pr. Aziz only keeps animals&#039; similarities to us that justify testing, not the similarities that would make it wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see two problems with Pr. Aziz&#8217;s argumentation.</p>
<p>First, he justifies the means retroactively by the results:<br />
”This list of medical discoveries illustrates the point that if animals were not used none of these therapies and so many others would not exist.”<br />
Applied in other context, the same argument is quite disturbing. Consider someone justifying war time human experimentation by pointing out the good things that came out of it. Even if something good did come out of the horrible experiments that were made on war prisoners, it doesn&#8217;t justify doing the experiments in the first place.</p>
<p>Just because something ethically questionnable leads to something positive doesn&#8217;t make it positive in itself.<br />
This is common fallacy.</p>
<p>Secondly, I see some sort of paradox in the idea that it&#8217;s a good idea to test on, say, mice, because they are &#8220;like us&#8221; genetically (to some extent) but it&#8217;s ok to test on them because they are not like us.<br />
We are conveniently only keeping the aspects of other animals that relate to us and not considering other aspects that make the testing questionnable: pain, sentience, pursuit of pleasure, family behaviour etc.<br />
No, int this article, Pr. Aziz only keeps animals&#8217; similarities to us that justify testing, not the similarities that would make it wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: lisa clark-kahn</title>
		<link>http://newgenerationsociety.com/2009/06/26/animal-testing-%e2%80%93-%e2%80%98standing-up-for-science%e2%80%99/comment-page-1/#comment-596</link>
		<dc:creator>lisa clark-kahn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Aug 2009 17:35:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://newgenerationsociety.com/?p=508#comment-596</guid>
		<description>Go inside hell on earth,called labortories. If you still choose to defend them then god bless, thats on you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Go inside hell on earth,called labortories. If you still choose to defend them then god bless, thats on you.</p>
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		<title>By: Catherine Heckford-Dickinson</title>
		<link>http://newgenerationsociety.com/2009/06/26/animal-testing-%e2%80%93-%e2%80%98standing-up-for-science%e2%80%99/comment-page-1/#comment-66</link>
		<dc:creator>Catherine Heckford-Dickinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Jul 2009 14:28:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://newgenerationsociety.com/?p=508#comment-66</guid>
		<description>One species is not a model for another, it never has been and never will be. Whilst certain physical characteristics may be shared mice and people, a mouse is still a mouse with the differences that make it a mouse. Chimpanzees share even more genes with us than a mouse, yet they still serve as poor comparisons for the human body. 

Professor Aziz claims that human tissues and computer models are &#039;inadequate&#039; because they &#039;cannot replace a whole body&#039;. This does not mean however that the whole body of an animal can ever model that of a human being. As regards needing the complexity of the whole body in its entirety; the greater complexity of a whole animal body, merely serves as an environment for more variables due to species differences; hence the risk is much greater for incorrect conclusions, with potential catastrophic consequences.

Animal results correlate with humans 5-25% percent of the time.This is worse than tossing a coin. A coincidental correlation of results (when this occurs) is NOT a basis for science and history, is testament to the fact that &#039;animal studies&#039; are all too often dangerously misleading. 

Professor Aziz claims that progress has come due to animal research.However several medical historian argue that key discoveries came from clinical research, obeservation of patients and autopsies. These historians include the great Hans Ruesch. 

In  Britain there is a &#039;Safety of Medicines (Evaluation) Bill&#039; in Parliament.The calls for a proper comparison of animal data against data from other methods which include microdosing within humans, microfluidics chips, DNA chips along with computer modelling. Such a comparison is long overdue everywhere!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One species is not a model for another, it never has been and never will be. Whilst certain physical characteristics may be shared mice and people, a mouse is still a mouse with the differences that make it a mouse. Chimpanzees share even more genes with us than a mouse, yet they still serve as poor comparisons for the human body. </p>
<p>Professor Aziz claims that human tissues and computer models are &#8216;inadequate&#8217; because they &#8216;cannot replace a whole body&#8217;. This does not mean however that the whole body of an animal can ever model that of a human being. As regards needing the complexity of the whole body in its entirety; the greater complexity of a whole animal body, merely serves as an environment for more variables due to species differences; hence the risk is much greater for incorrect conclusions, with potential catastrophic consequences.</p>
<p>Animal results correlate with humans 5-25% percent of the time.This is worse than tossing a coin. A coincidental correlation of results (when this occurs) is NOT a basis for science and history, is testament to the fact that &#8216;animal studies&#8217; are all too often dangerously misleading. </p>
<p>Professor Aziz claims that progress has come due to animal research.However several medical historian argue that key discoveries came from clinical research, obeservation of patients and autopsies. These historians include the great Hans Ruesch. </p>
<p>In  Britain there is a &#8216;Safety of Medicines (Evaluation) Bill&#8217; in Parliament.The calls for a proper comparison of animal data against data from other methods which include microdosing within humans, microfluidics chips, DNA chips along with computer modelling. Such a comparison is long overdue everywhere!</p>
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		<title>By: Kathy</title>
		<link>http://newgenerationsociety.com/2009/06/26/animal-testing-%e2%80%93-%e2%80%98standing-up-for-science%e2%80%99/comment-page-1/#comment-45</link>
		<dc:creator>Kathy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Jul 2009 04:59:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://newgenerationsociety.com/?p=508#comment-45</guid>
		<description>Somebody smack aziz upside the head and wake him up. 
Mathematics are the new science, but as long as frauds like aziz continue to get away with their lies &amp; propaganda (not to mention stealing billions of dollars from tax payers) there will never be a cure for cancer or any other disease.
RIP. Felix, you are not forgotten.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Somebody smack aziz upside the head and wake him up.<br />
Mathematics are the new science, but as long as frauds like aziz continue to get away with their lies &amp; propaganda (not to mention stealing billions of dollars from tax payers) there will never be a cure for cancer or any other disease.<br />
RIP. Felix, you are not forgotten.</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah</title>
		<link>http://newgenerationsociety.com/2009/06/26/animal-testing-%e2%80%93-%e2%80%98standing-up-for-science%e2%80%99/comment-page-1/#comment-38</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 18:39:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://newgenerationsociety.com/?p=508#comment-38</guid>
		<description>animal testing is wrong. i can see how it has been beneficial over the years but i strongly believe animals should be treat as equals as they are no different and their lives are just as precious as a human beings.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>animal testing is wrong. i can see how it has been beneficial over the years but i strongly believe animals should be treat as equals as they are no different and their lives are just as precious as a human beings.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://newgenerationsociety.com/2009/06/26/animal-testing-%e2%80%93-%e2%80%98standing-up-for-science%e2%80%99/comment-page-1/#comment-35</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 17:43:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://newgenerationsociety.com/?p=508#comment-35</guid>
		<description>Surely it&#039;s more likely that big petshops are responsible for the animal testing conspiracy, should it exist, rather than big pharma?

To argue against the prof one needs to attack the substantive points he makes. The ALF do not. Interesting that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Surely it&#8217;s more likely that big petshops are responsible for the animal testing conspiracy, should it exist, rather than big pharma?</p>
<p>To argue against the prof one needs to attack the substantive points he makes. The ALF do not. Interesting that.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://newgenerationsociety.com/2009/06/26/animal-testing-%e2%80%93-%e2%80%98standing-up-for-science%e2%80%99/comment-page-1/#comment-34</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 10:28:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://newgenerationsociety.com/?p=508#comment-34</guid>
		<description>As a researcher in BioMEMS I agree with Prof. Aziz and Dr Browne that the replacement technologies on offer are not anywhere near mature enough to do more than provide an initial model of drug or disease action upon which animal testing is then required to expand.  Just dealing with two provided examples : the development of 3d scaffolds for tissue growth does not provide for the analysis of the effect of breakdown products on other tissues (3d-scaffolds are still being massively improved as well, they may be in production for general release, but they are far from perfect); the implantation of a chip into an organ to measure the effect of a drug requires that organ to be present inside a living body for measurements of interactions throughout the body to be made.

As with many things though, there are two sides.  A cell biologist friend who is pro-animal testing recounted the attitude of a lecturer that &quot;they are only animals and caring about how happy they are was stupid&quot;.  Given that they are giving their lives to save ours we should ALWAYS care about how happy they are.  This is aside form the fact that stressed animals may react differently to various drugs.  I also do not believe that all research on animals, despite the cost and the regulations, is performed because it is essential.

I would not however advocate for reduction in animal testing as I am not qualified to say what is and is not essential.  I do think that more education in ethics AND long term (i.e. several hours per week for at least 6 months) direct exposure to living animals should be required for all researchers using animals.  If nothing else it would mean they can put a living &#039;face&#039; to the animal they are intending to kill.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a researcher in BioMEMS I agree with Prof. Aziz and Dr Browne that the replacement technologies on offer are not anywhere near mature enough to do more than provide an initial model of drug or disease action upon which animal testing is then required to expand.  Just dealing with two provided examples : the development of 3d scaffolds for tissue growth does not provide for the analysis of the effect of breakdown products on other tissues (3d-scaffolds are still being massively improved as well, they may be in production for general release, but they are far from perfect); the implantation of a chip into an organ to measure the effect of a drug requires that organ to be present inside a living body for measurements of interactions throughout the body to be made.</p>
<p>As with many things though, there are two sides.  A cell biologist friend who is pro-animal testing recounted the attitude of a lecturer that &#8220;they are only animals and caring about how happy they are was stupid&#8221;.  Given that they are giving their lives to save ours we should ALWAYS care about how happy they are.  This is aside form the fact that stressed animals may react differently to various drugs.  I also do not believe that all research on animals, despite the cost and the regulations, is performed because it is essential.</p>
<p>I would not however advocate for reduction in animal testing as I am not qualified to say what is and is not essential.  I do think that more education in ethics AND long term (i.e. several hours per week for at least 6 months) direct exposure to living animals should be required for all researchers using animals.  If nothing else it would mean they can put a living &#8216;face&#8217; to the animal they are intending to kill.</p>
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		<title>By: karen</title>
		<link>http://newgenerationsociety.com/2009/06/26/animal-testing-%e2%80%93-%e2%80%98standing-up-for-science%e2%80%99/comment-page-1/#comment-31</link>
		<dc:creator>karen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 09:39:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://newgenerationsociety.com/?p=508#comment-31</guid>
		<description>Helen.  trotting out the &#039;pockets of big pharma&#039; line is way off the mark here...   you have to realise that animal testing is much more expensive than any of the alternative testing methods and it is actually big pharma who spend the most on developing and validating new non-animal testing methods...  and of course for big pharma the most expensive part of drug development is the clincial trials, the testing that is done on humans....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Helen.  trotting out the &#8216;pockets of big pharma&#8217; line is way off the mark here&#8230;   you have to realise that animal testing is much more expensive than any of the alternative testing methods and it is actually big pharma who spend the most on developing and validating new non-animal testing methods&#8230;  and of course for big pharma the most expensive part of drug development is the clincial trials, the testing that is done on humans&#8230;.</p>
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